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NASA’s Science Head on Main Area Missions with Possibility of Impressive Failure

CURT NICKISCH: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Trade Overview. I’m Curt Nickisch.

A yr in the past, the U.S. house company NASA introduced a spacecraft the dimensions of a merchandising gadget towards a couple of asteroids, one orbiting the opposite, greater than 11 million kilometers away. The objective? The smaller of the 2 asteroids, simply 170 meters extensive. The spacecraft slammed into the asteroid so speedy, it lined the closing 10 kilometers in a few 2nd.

It’s actually onerous to get a hold of a down-to-earth comparability. It’s somewhat like hitting billiard shot from one aspect of a continent to the opposite and draining it. Now not handiest did this spacecraft effectively gradual the orbit of the asteroid, which used to be what it used to be being examined to do – it additionally introduced alongside its personal movie workforce for posterity. A tiny spacecraft, made by means of the Italian house company, adopted 3 mins at the back of the spacecraft, taking photos of the damage.

If you wish to discuss complexity, extremely technical, dangerous… Neatly, it is a undertaking for you. A $300 million greenback one who took seven years to devise and release, coordinating scientists and knowledgeable groups world wide.

How do you execute a undertaking like that? Or the James Webb Area Telescope that’s now beaming extraordinarily top resolutions images of house again to Earth?

Right here to let us know how is Thomas Zurbuchen, the top of science at NASA. He oversees a $7.6 billion greenback price range for house science missions, in addition to multiple billion bucks for earth science missions, like those making local weather observations of Earth. Hello Thomas.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Excellent to speak to you.

CURT NICKISCH: Thomas you have been born in Switzerland. Your father used to be a distinguished pastor in a spiritual group there. How did you get began for your trail to the place you at the moment are?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Yeah, precisely proper. So it is more or less, I feel one of the simplest ways I’d give an explanation for it, I principally grew up in an Amish gentle roughly model, so very remoted from the group as an entire. In reality the one books I learn as a kid have been both the Bible or issues in regards to the Bible. That’s how I grew up in a mountain village in Switzerland. Very remoted, obstacles on what you’ll be able to put on. I by no means had denims, for instance. My sisters at all times had attire, no pants and so on.

However what came about is we had the necessary public college and that used to be my actually access into studying. The fantastic paintings that came about elsewhere, in truth volunteered to paintings on the library. And so I began studying complete sections of the library, each historical past and exploration, just like the tales of explorers by means of boat or individuals who discovered learn how to construct constructions in Italy or elsewhere, however then additionally science.

And I actually fell in love with science general. And in the end I went to the trainer and stated, good day, I’d actually love to believe finding out – the wonder used to be roughly there when the trainer stated, oh, you will not be excellent sufficient. Since you’re partially from that village, that’s no longer what he stated. However I had overheard them pronouncing that take a look at their folks, they’re no longer actually good. So I did that. I did make it as a result of the improve of different lecturers into gym which is actually the step against college. Then studied physics the entire option to a PhD in astrophysics.

CURT NICKISCH: That’s an important tale. What did you do after that?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: -I had a profession for just about 25 years, 20 plus years. I’d then wish to say on the College of Michigan the place I used to be a professor, actually had a analysis staff. I constructed some house tools. By means of the best way, I began that all through my schooling in Switzerland already. Such a lot of house is world and has been for a few years. After which in fact additionally ran innovation and entrepreneurship methods at Michigan and in addition did construct instructional methods interested in house and particularly entrepreneurial house.

CURT NICKISCH: What attracted you about this position?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: I’ve at all times been very a lot occupied with science. Simply I feel doing science is likely one of the maximum superb issues we will be doing as people as a result of we’re pushing that boundary of lack of know-how – issues that separate what we all know from what we don’t know.

To me, that’s simply such the most important phase. Simply that very same pleasure that I had studying those books in that library early on is the thrill that I nonetheless have. It’s figuring issues out that nature is amazingly gorgeous and it’s vital. The second one interest I’ve is actually rising ability as a result of on the finish you at all times need individuals who come at the back of you to exceed what you do as a result of that creates a greater and higher staff and society. So actually, I did these kinds of issues on the College of Michigan and I actually felt that I finished studying somewhat as a lot.

And I principally discovered what the traits have been of the following process. And I began interviewing and on the finish I had two process provides. One used to be an innovation chief at Amazon, the corporate, and the second used to be the top of science at NASA. And so principally I went during the fight of working out which one to take. I took the person who will pay so much much less.

CURT NICKISCH: What’s your time table on your position now? After we requested about scheduling this interview, you wrote us again pronouncing we’re hitting an asteroid with a spacecraft on Monday and looking to release a rocket on Tuesday. Later within the week may well be higher.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: So the excellent news is we’re doing amazingly thrilling issues and virtually each and every week there’s some spotlight, whether or not it’s a release, whether or not it’s a project end result, whether or not it’s frankly a problem we now have with a project that calls for my consideration. Our objective is to increase those missions no longer to achieve success handiest, but additionally so taxpayers can also be pleased with it.

I see time as probably the most valuable excellent I’ve. I set transparent barriers round my time. As an example, I don’t permit common scheduling sooner than 8 o’clock within the morning. They wish to ask for approval or after 5 o’clock. After all do paintings past that, however I don’t wish to be in a reactive mode completely pushed by means of time table.

So in that time table has to suit each the operational keeping up of those missions, the 50 or so we’re growing at this time. Nevertheless it additionally needs to be interested in technique and constructing the group, frankly, empowering and rising the staff, however then additionally do the paintings I wish to do, which is to force against choices those missions and get them to release and lead them to a hit.

CURT NICKISCH: You latterly wrote that you simply felt you were too reactive as a pacesetter lately. Are you able to let us know about that? Why is {that a} mistake?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: So what I realized about myself is I actually wish to be busy to be at my absolute best. I do absolute best on the pace of a jogger. I sweat somewhat bit. I do absolute best at that pace. I’m no longer dashing, I’m no longer sprinting. I may pass without end at that pace, but it surely’s no longer simply strolling and taking a look left and proper.

It’s a must to make certain that the unknowns that don’t seem to be a part of the plan don’t put you into the sprinting vary. Hastily what occurs is issues come your approach and you can not keep an eye on the whole workflow. You pass into a method during which you continuously can not fend off issues that come to you.

Now you lose keep an eye on. It’s virtually like any person is using a automotive at the back of you and pushing you down the road. Now that’s actually horrifying and it’s simply actually dangerous and also you don’t really feel like that you must have keep an eye on as a result of you’re feeling in the event you don’t pass that pace, one thing terrible occurs, you get underneath the auto.

I’ve spotted in my six years at NASA, there have been two or thrice the place I were given into that mode and I actually needed to reset. And what I assumed used to be actually vital for me is to speak about that. As a result of I additionally see others who’re now and then at that mode, what you spot as other people slightly maintaining what they’re doing, regularly this is as a result of loss of delegation.

If in case you have 100 priorities, you don’t have any priorities. And so for me, it actually is making that an issue and in addition dropping paintings. What are the issues that I’m no longer the most efficient in the entire staff or essentially want so that you could do? And roughly stepping it to a spot the place I’m once more proactive. I feel ahead. I see issues sooner than they’re right here and we will resolve them once they’re little. They’re no longer super giant issues the place swiftly we need to prevent the whole lot else and concentrate on it.

CURT NICKISCH: What’s other about this process from others you’ve had? You helped lead entrepreneurship methods. Right here you’re serving to to persuade and run ventures with issues which are doing one thing new that experience by no means been accomplished sooner than, like marketers are every so often looking to do. However you have been operating with scientists and also you’re operating with a large number of complexity. You’re operating across the world. I’m simply curious what that control is like.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: There are two or 3 issues which are actually other. Let me inform you the issues that don’t seem to be other first despite the fact that. I take into accout other people at all times asking me is like, how are you able to deal with govt bureaucracies? I feel you’re underestimating bureaucracies and universities. It’s additionally most often talking, regardless of the place I’ve labored, I principally discovered that individuals actually imply to do the precise factor at the huge. Nearly all of other people, regardless of the place you’re employed, they wish to do the precise, they wish to have price. And so it’s simply other people. So it’s whether or not those individuals are elected officers, whether or not those individuals are frankly giant political bosses, whether or not those individuals are technicians in a store or my managers, they wish to do the precise factor. After which the query is, are they in the precise process and will they achieve success?

What’s other despite the fact that, roughly the best way NASA is ready up, as a result of we’re arrange as an company that takes dangers at all times. The one approach that company can take chance is that any person owns the danger. And so because of that, I personal the danger. We’re able to head. It’s my signature that principally says the payload is able. If it’s no longer going smartly, my process is at jeopardy, however the different jobs don’t seem to be. And so because of that, my voice has extra weight. So after I say we’re doing it, I will be able to pay attention to everyone and I do. Other folks in my process, in the event that they’re no longer being attentive to their staff, they’re simply dumb.

So I pay attention to everyone, however on the finish, it’s my choice. In earlier jobs I’ve had, when the verdict is made by means of the chief, the dialogue begins. At NASA, when my choice is made, it’s over, it’s accomplished. Choice making is one thing I need to be a lot more considerate about since the end result of dangerous choices is such a lot larger, in order that’s other.

The second is the groups are a lot more advanced. So I don’t handiest have my management staff of the 400, 500 individuals who paintings at headquarters or the 6,000 to ten,000 particular person researchers which are roughly at the payroll inside of NASA and contractors proper there, but additionally in a given project, two thirds of them have a world companions.

We’ve business companions. A few of them are venture-funded corporations, a few of them are corporations which were with us so long as the company has been round. The Lockheed Martins, the Boeings. So principally what my process may be very a lot spotting that, by means of the best way, probably the most companions already discussed are the elected officers. A few of them within the White Area and a few of them over in Capitol Hill. And so they’re very a lot stakeholders in it. So it’s only a complexity. The scale and complexity of the groups are regularly a lot, a lot greater. The ones actually are the 2 key traits which are isolating them from different issues I’ve accomplished.

CURT NICKISCH: Let me ask you about taking duty in order that groups can also be actually enterprising, can recommend roughly groundbreaking issues. Why is that vital?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: We might be constructing 20 missions inside of NASA. They all paintings, and we might be failing at our process. What our process is not just to do the project effectively however to push the envelope, to do new issues, to create new alternatives each for the science group international, but additionally for the economic group round us, for us in the USA. And our taxpayers be expecting us to push the envelope. That’s why what we do principally in each and every project, there are issues we’ve by no means accomplished, every so often 300 of them, and that’s roughly horrifying. However most often the best way I take into consideration it, each and every project has no less than one miracle. I name them miracles, no longer as a result of they’re some roughly wanders you can not impact them, however one thing that should occur that appears unattainable in the beginning. So I’m no longer considering missions that don’t have any miracles, frankly.

That’s simply no longer what we do, frankly. Each project, after I got here in as a pacesetter in my place, I principally requested that each and every project has no less than one generation this is new so the missions that come at the back of it may benefit from it. And so we’ve accomplished that constantly, have modified our release paradigm to allow that as smartly. And so principally whilst you do this despite the fact that, what you can not do on the similar time is more or less inform other people you’ll be able to by no means fail.

So I spend a large number of time accepting failure. So principally telling other people, glance, we make errors round right here and I would like you to be at ease doing that. And I wish to provide the house. Now, I’m really not accepting silly errors. You return under the influence of alcohol to paintings and you were given into an twist of fate. That isn’t the kind of errors we’re speaking about.

I’m speaking about issues that the place we do the most efficient process as absolute best as we all know they usually nonetheless don’t paintings, any person wishes to mention that’s k. And it’s the one that if you need, I will be able to testify to Congress and that’s me. And so for me, it’s actually vital that the staff has the liberty of idea, the freedom to take the ones dangers and transfer ahead. As a result of see, it’s really easy to show off innovation on your group and that’s the first one that is innovating and is making an attempt actually, actually onerous to do one thing new. And it doesn’t somewhat paintings. When you pass after that particular person, so the individual is dispirited, principally is punished for that. The excellent news is you’ll by no means get an individual like that once more who tells you that they have got no longer somewhat been a hit, however you even have became off the leading edge capacity of your whole group.

Therefore it’s actually vital to create that house. And it’s additionally actually vital the way you handle this. I wish to inform you, I’ve communicated so much about failure. This morning by myself sooner than this interview, already had two telephone calls of other people telling me that they’re suffering. I beg that telephone name, frankly, whether or not it’s the CEO or the highest VP of an organization, I inform them, right here’s my private mobile phone. You’ve gotten an issue, I don’t need you to cover the issue. That what I do to you in the event you flag the issue is I will be able to no longer overreact.

CURT NICKISCH: How do you guard in opposition to over optimism then, in the event you create an area the place failure is fine and also you’re on the lookout for envelope, pushing concepts, that just about makes it simple for other people to get a hold of pie within the sky concepts that aren’t sensible, perhaps too constructive, however there’s no threat in going too a long way?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: On the subject of innovation, constraints are your buddy. Constraints might be you’ll be able to innovate, however the most sum of money it will value is 100 million bucks. You’re $1 over, you’re out. So once more, you’ll be able to do, we will take chance, you’ll be able to modify the scope, you’ll be able to modify the time table, you’ll be able to modify your staff. I’ll allow you to do no matter. We even will scale back the bureaucracy that we do. We’ll do no matter. We’ll use the most simple model of oversight, however you can not get a greenback over. And in the event you recover from, I’m going to terminate you. And for me, that needs to be transparent firstly.

See, the issue with no longer doing that, surroundings constraints, is {that a} unmarried experiment can have an effect on many experiments subsequent to it. So I at all times call to mind innovation is sort of a steel. At the one aspect of the steel it says, sure, do it, take a look at, inspire. The opposite aspect of the steel is right here’s the limitations, work out what they’re. They’re at the different aspect of the steel. They wish to know right here’s how we’re protective the group from you. You can not stink up the entire group. And naturally you must smash a few of these regulations every now and then.

But if I got here to NASA, I used to be additionally probably the most first individuals in a very long time that has terminated missions, stopped them. As an example, a project that used to be over an element two and a part over value. I’m like, as a taxpayer, you may by no means comply with this. When any person comes into your own home and fixes a sink they usually paintings there for an afternoon, after which they are saying, smartly, I advised you $200, and by means of the best way, I already spent the $200, but it surely prices you every other $300 now to complete the sink, you are saying get misplaced. Neatly, so for me, spending the taxpayers’ cash, I see myself as an recommend for the taxpayer too. And subsequently the limitations are actually vital.

CURT NICKISCH: You got here to NASA with this internet telescope undertaking already underway, massive $10 billion undertaking, and there used to be some issues of it that you simply encountered and needed to write.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Yeah. I got here in and the telescope at this second, I had 3 portions. One used to be the operations, the second used to be the telescope, and the 3rd one used to be the spacecraft with its warmth protect. And the telescope did actually smartly, and everyone used to be clapping and tapping each and every different at the shoulder and actually excited how the telescope used to be doing. All consideration went there.

And I take into accout one month into my paintings, the primary understand in my pocket book the place I began to invite about are we striking sufficient focal point at the bus and the solar protect? And it became out the solution used to be no with an exclamation mark. And it took me kind of a yr to actually turn out that to myself. I realized there that we have been status nonetheless for nearly two years spending $1 million consistent with day. And each day the release date moved out by means of sooner or later, which principally tells you we’re blowing cash and we’re no longer making development.

And naturally I needed to substitute some other people, however extra importantly, we discovered that it used to be actually a team-building factor. The way in which we figured that out is by means of doing an unbiased assessment, a non-advocate assessment by means of critics who actually take a look at this and get complete get admission to. You want, frankly, I requested that assessment, must we entire that telescope? Do we now have any probability?

And so they got here again and says, you may have an opportunity. It’s actually, actually onerous, however listed below are 32 issues you want to do. And that’s actually useful as a pacesetter, as a result of I sat down and primary I stated, who’s accountable for that?

However then we principally checked out those 32 movements and we began solving each and every one among them, retraining, changing the place we had to substitute some roughly portions of the gadget and construct it again up. So unbiased critiques also are useful to get inherent optimism or dangerous conversation out of the gadget as a result of what other people wish to do on the most sensible stage, the folks I communicate to simply take into accout, there’s 1,000,000 bucks we’re spending consistent with day. Any individual says, that’s vital for my corporate. And so there’s a nasty incentive, however an incentive however for no longer telling you utterly the reality all through that dialogue. And that’s why it’s vital to damage down the conversation barriers.

CURT NICKISCH: Neatly, that undertaking became out nice. Everyone used to be simply enthralled by means of the photographs that the telescope began popping out with. And it used to be probably the most highlights I believe of your tenure there. However you additionally had touchdown a rover on Mars, sending a drone round recording sound on Mars, sending sound again from a planet for the primary time. Are you able to discuss a few of the ones successes, perhaps a few of your favorites and the way you’ll be able to be informed from successes and construct from them?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: So at first, that’s actually after I discussed that, in fact, in each and every a type of successes, there’s a staff that gave their absolute best they usually deserve a large number of credit score. And if I didn’t put Webb – JWSD – on most sensible of the listing, that will be a mistake. It’s very onerous to have eyes to take a look at the universe in a brand new approach. And JWSD, the James Webb Area telescope is a telescope like that. And it’s so, so, so onerous, it’s simply on the fringe of what we will do. And so the truth that the staff pulled it off how it did after many disaster, I’m immensely pleased with them. And this will likely trade how we take into consideration our universe. You are going to take a look at the evening sky in a different way even 5 years from now as a result of that telescope.

Touchdown on Mars with perseverance, which aptly named perseverance. In fact humorous, I selected that identify kind of a month sooner than Covid. We simply mentioned my tale, so perseverance is why I’m right here. And so I simply actually consider that perseverance, the sort of certain factor. And naturally that by means of the best way, after I began, used to be additionally in hassle. It appeared love it used to be no longer going to head in 2020. And once more, I had a large number of other people telling me issues that I sought after to listen to or leaders wish to pay attention, however have been unfaithful. We have been actually in hassle. We had to repair it.

And the helicopter I’m very pleased with as a result of this is an innovation that individuals sought after to do, however we did it the precise approach. The constraint there used to be value. I principally gave them a cap and that safe them from overreach of forms in some way that will’ve another way killed them. It’s such a success now that in truth for Mars pattern go back, which is the place we’re going to pick out up the ones samples within the past due decade, we’re going to make use of drones like Ingenuity, just like the helicopter on Mars as a reserve part to get the ones samples again, shoot the rover no longer make it to the past due twenties.

So I simply wish to inform you, I’m pleased with that. Parker Sun Probe on the quickest closest project to the solar named for the primary time after an individual nonetheless alive, a Midwesterner who used to be over liked. He simply died a couple of months in the past. Figuring out that everyone knew what he had accomplished for house. The ones are simply 3 of probably the most a hit missions out of the 38 that we introduced since since I’ve been there.

CURT NICKISCH: Any effort that NASA places in combination additionally comes to a large number of coordination between other businesses and world businesses. It may be advanced when you have stakeholders there in Washington, DC. You even have stakeholders in capitals in Europe and Asia and around the globe. What have you ever discovered from that have?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Before everything, I deal with each and every individual that I’m interacting with, whether or not that particular person is accountable for an area company across the world, whether or not it’s of an organization, I deal with them like a human being.

I attempt to straight away, once I will be able to, roughly transfer the connection onto two layers. The primary one is a qualified one. I will be able to at all times constitute NASA, act in the most efficient hobby of the taxpayers, of the elected officers that I paintings for. However the second one layer is one the place I recognize that they have got to do the similar and they have got hobby at me now and then be opposite to the USA, however they’ll do their absolute best as other people. So for plenty of of them, I do know their households, I’ve met them, have accomplished dinners at their house, they know mine. I’ve spent a large number of effort with, and no longer as a result of I’m puzzled in regards to the first objective, it’s to be sure that we’re no longer fixing issues that we don’t wish to resolve.

It must by no means be the interpersonal issues, conversation issues. We’ve the precise courting if we now have an issue and the individual on the different aspect of the desk says, “Thomas, this is senseless to me the best way you simply stated it. May just we undergo this yet another time?” So in different phrases, I am getting dangerous information from them in the event that they don’t perceive. That’s the extent of believe we wish. That signifies that we will resolve issues successfully after which we will do sophisticated issues. We will be able to depend on each and every different.

One tale that I wish to inform you briefly, we now have a lander on Mars referred to as InSight and used to be with the French Area Company. And admittedly that they had sooner than I got here to NASA, neglected the release window. After I got here to NASA, they have been yellow once more on time. In order that they have been about to pass over the second one release window.

And I principally stated, I’m going to fulfill the French. So I were given at the aircraft and it is helping in fact that I discuss French, however I were given on a aircraft and principally with a easy message. You’ve gotten one probability. We’re going to achieve success, however in the event you’re lacking it, we’re no longer going to prolong it. And admittedly, most of the issues that that they had with their very own staff with corporations were given solved with that commute. I advised them, by means of the best way, they wish to ship at the 14th of July the reward of that yr, another way we’re no longer going to fly.

CURT NICKISCH: 14 july.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Precisely proper. Ahead of that day, they wish to ship as a result of they’re all happening holiday. I don’t desire a theoretical answer. I would like a real answer that’s culturally a hit. In different phrases, I don’t need them to paintings thru their holiday. In fact they neglected it by means of sooner or later. It were given at the aircraft at the fifteenth as a result of a delivery factor, however I’m immensely pleased with them.

In order that they delivered. We introduced, I went again to France and went into the corporate and thanked them in French for his or her effort with the leaders there and actually thanked them. And I met the superb individuals who construct it. So world courting are relationships between folks that we deal with each and every different the precise approach, however we do it within the hobby of our personal governments and taxpayers.

CURT NICKISCH: You latterly introduced that you simply’re leaving this process in December. Why did you come back to that call and what do you hope your legacy at the group can be?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: I’m a powerful believer that leaders and massive organizations, particularly tough leaders, must rotate out after so and such a lot of years. After I got here in, I advised everyone I’m right here 5 to seven years in the event that they would wish me. When you’re top sufficient in a central authority, you every so often don’t live to tell the tale a president’s transition, and I labored for 3 presidents now.

CURT NICKISCH: You place a constraint on your self necessarily.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: Completely, I did. But additionally gave them believe. I’m no longer right here simply to faux it. I’m going to be with the group and I’m going to place my center and soul into it. I used to be lovely satisfied roughly one thing like a part a yr in the past, I roughly understand, to begin with, I construct a staff this is actually, actually excellent. I don’t wish to be within the room for most of the choices that I used to force. They’re leading edge. They discovered learn how to paintings with business companions. They’re certain, they’re constructing their very own groups. We’ve a various management staff.

And admittedly, I realized additionally that there’s a large number of repeats. There’s no longer a large number of firsts. So roughly my studying fee has bogged down. And as a result of that reason why, and in addition as a result of as a pacesetter even have weaknesses. And take into accout, if we transfer the group within the course of your power, the ratio of the have an effect on of your power and your weaknesses transfer in choose of the weaknesses through the years.

And so as a result of that, additionally spotting, good day, my much less affected person view has now and then created issues now extra so than it did sooner than. So I simply got here to the realization and with all of the staff, principally, good day, I’m going to depart subsequent yr. The query is when, and I’m leaving when it’s absolute best for the staff that we’ve recognized.

CURT NICKISCH: And your legacy?

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: I am hoping that after other people glance at the moment, they in finding two issues. The primary one is big successes that stand the take a look at of historical past, principally, that they actually mattered they usually’re vital. And the second is that I used to be a part of constructing a suite of leaders and set of enablers of that business that experience a long-term have an effect on, that a lot exceed the time that I used to be there.

CURT NICKISCH: Thomas, thank you such a lot for coming at the display to speak about your enjoy there main science efforts at NASA.

THOMAS ZURBUCHEN: I actually admire the time.

CURT NICKISCH: That’s Thomas Zurbuchen. He’s the top of science at NASA. For every other episode in this subject, take a look at episode 684, Working out the Area Economic system.

And we now have extra episodes and extra podcasts that will help you organize your staff, organize organizations, and organize your profession. To find them at hbr.org/podcasts or seek HBR in Apple podcast, Spotify, or anywhere you pay attention.

This episode used to be produced by means of Mary Dooe. We get technical lend a hand from Rob Eckhardt. Our audio product supervisor is Ian Fox. And Hannah Bates is our audio manufacturing assistant. Thank you for being attentive to the HBR IdeaCast. I’m Curt Nickisch.